(TN by Pin)
“Man is not what he thinks he is, he is what he hides.” — André Malraux
Father, creator of the Homunculi and seeker of God.
Emperor Belos, the leader of the boiling isles aiming for genocide.
To do the thing that you believe is correct, would you sacrifice everything to achieve it? These two will do anything to make sure their reality is correct. Will Father finally end humanity's greatest foe? Or will Emperor Belos dispatch all that opposes him? Come along to Saul’s VS blog to find out who would win a DEATH BATTLE!!!!
Before We Go Anywhere…
Father and Belos have a really small media list. For Father, we’ll be considering the Fullmetal Alchemist manga and Brotherhood anime, while for Emperor Belos, we’ll be considering the Owl House show. As you might imagine, the 2003 TV show won’t be considered as Father doesn’t actually appear.
Both Father and Belos have specific forms that, by all accounts, aren’t truly standard. But they’re incredibly important to both in their stories, being the last forms they take, and the fact there’s thematic parallels in both of these forms (The guy who is a monster ends up looking more like a human than the human who hates monsters). All forms will be given to the two of them and later on explained. And also since we see Titan Belos just rising for the sake of the debate he wasn’t rising but was standing and is standing once he gets into it.
To give credit where it’s due, information on certain feats and calcs have been taken from some blogs and documents. Credit to G1s Frieren vs Hohenheim and Luz vs Anne blogs. We also took some calcs from the large Owl House calculation blog.
Background
Father
A creation of pure perfection and would do anything to achieve it. Born when Hohenheim's blood mixed with the essence of the eye Father was born. Originally born as a shadowy eye this was his true form, a form of charisma and some human aspects an almost shadow to the version of Father we see later. Resembling Hohenheim he wears white and is stated to be more stoic, almost lifeless to his true self; he is cold with nothing of warmth in his soul. He supposedly purged himself of all sin; we see that he does have some form of Hohenheim’s personality showing a comical side once or twice.
Father is also narcissistic, callous, merciless, pitiless, egotistical, megalomaniacal, deeply selfish, and believes that everyone around him are nothing but tools to be used as part of his plans. The only exceptions to this may be his seven Homunculi "children", as Hohenheim had stated during their battle that one of the reasons he had created them was because he wanted a family of his own, hence his title of Our Father, a fact which annoys him but which he also does not deny. But he reveals to Greed the Homunculus were born of his vices meaning all of his sin was transferred to them in a way. This is particularly true of Greed, Envy, and Pride. Greed's desire for possessions was really an attempt to escape the loneliness and desire for close friends he felt deep down, whilst Envy's grandiose hatred of humans covered up a deep-seated inferiority complex and envy of humans, particularly their sense of emotional intimacy, and Pride's great disdain of the human race covers a certain lack of self-reverence.
As something we learn of Father he isn’t better than all of us but he does experience all of our emotions he made the Homunculi as a way to purge himself of loneliness and to give himself what he wanted a family to vanquish the jealousy he bore of humans cherishing each other when he was so beyond their petty lives. His thirst for power seems to be the only thing more important to him other than himself, noted when he does not hesitate to abandon his Homunculus "son" Pride in exchange for resupplying his Philosopher's Stone or to absorb Greed into his body to resupply it. Also, though he considers the Homunculi to be his children, he never expressed grief for any of their demise. Unlike Lust or Envy, Father has also stated that he feels no such hatred or contempt towards humans. He confesses to Edward that he merely sees humans as nothing more than stepping stones for himself, explaining his outright indifference and apathy towards them.
Within it all the cold array we witness from father fades when he achieves what he wants his plans come into full motion absorbing the gate of truth he is giddy he is maniacal Father claims that Truth (the consciences of alchemists) is a personal God, and since Father considers himself perfectly good, he also thinks that God is on his side, and that by absorbing God, he becomes absolutely perfect. He would be free of all these jealousies for when you're perfect you are beyond such petty things. But Father is revealed to himself he’s a hypocrite. Truth's works have a logical flaw, according to Edward Elric. Although he claims to have no emotions he actually does display them, sometimes as seemingly friendly ditziness, but also anger and great cruelty. If anything, it's more like his emotions are fairly low key. Hohenheim points out that while he claims to not want a family, the fact that he created seven "children" and had them call him Father betray his motives.
Back when he had his original, mortal form in the flask, he had a much more polite, charismatic, yet also somewhat sarcastic personality to him. "Full of human emotions", as Hohenheim notes, before he "purged" out his cardinal sins. When confronted by Hohenheim about this, Father reveals that the seven Homunculi were only created so he would become a perfect being. And with this Perfect form this god Father reabsorbs Greed while in this form - gaining the Ultimate Shield ability, which Greed promptly uses to turn Father's body to graphite, allowing Edward to easily defeat him. In his final moments he’s in his own form a black eye seeing the thing that was so very important to his plan: the Truth.
Truth mocks him, saying that taking the power of God didn't make him God, but rather a cunning thief. Demanding to know who he is speaking to, Father is horrified when Truth formally introduces itself and states itself as the Truth as he defines it: giving despair to discourage one from becoming boastful and proud. Truth tells Father that he'll receive his most fitting despair as the Gates open up and hands appear to grab Father. Father begins crying as he desperately asks what he did wrong to deserve this and where he went wrong, showing the flaws he tried to purge himself of. Ultimately, stripped of the freedom he cherished, Father is sucked into the Gate and once again becomes part of the endless abyss within.
Belos
“I like your spirit. But try that again and things won't end well for you.”
What would you do for power? To be recognized, to lead for Philip Whittebane he gave everything. Born in GravesField, Connecticut in the mid 17th century Phillip would live with his older brother Caleb and they would witch hunt as common practice until one day they met a real witch and was beset by Evelyn the witch's beauty. They would join in marriage and return to the Isle to pursue the Boiling Isle’s in search of Caleb. Eventually finding the Isle’s he would grow disgusted at magic and the entirety of witches with which he gained additional resentment due to the Isles' prejudice against humans causing him to be alienated, Philip would eventually conspire to eliminate the Isles and its inhabitants as a whole in an attempt to save humanity from their supposed wickedness. He would be furious with his brother as a result of him marrying what he thought was a vile specimen and he would murder his brother.
Getting lost in the isle’s Phillip would research magic and an entity known as the Collector and began to learn magic by consuming Palismins making massive advancements in magic. Taking on the identity of Belos he would claim that he spoke to the isle itself and how they were missing using magic that mixed together and so those of his followers made covens to limit crossing of magic. And those who resisted were called wild witches turning the populus of witches against each other by creating order and those who didn’t obey were cast aside broken and left in cells to rot or ashes to the wind made examples of instilling fear in those of the wild. After this ploy he would be named the emperor of the Isle’s and his grand plan was in full motion with a few more key elements and it would be done. He would establish an order led by the golden guard, a clone of his late brother Caleb and when they learned and presented Belos they would be slaughtered and replaced over and over.
Suddenly one day an unsightly event occurred an unlikely teenage girl named Luz Noceda would stumble into the Isle’s and Belos sought her for the portal back to the real world and finally began to reconstruct the portal and his grand plan began but if it was completed these “savages” would all perish and Phillip would show he was superior then all of these “cretins”. He announced the day of unity as a day of paradise he said and then he did it he launched the door and The Collector was unleashed upon the world and hell came with him.
Belos in his monstrous form was splattered by the all powerful child but would live by clinging to Hunter he needed his brothers clone someone he despised to let him live. He would land in the human world and would be massively weakened taking over dead animals until his power returned enough to return to Hunter once more. He possessed the boy and took over his mind and killed Flapjack, a palismin who had some connection to his past. Belos would successfully make it back to the Demon realm and would begin to regain his plan to end all life once more.
Possessing a new host in Raine Whispers he would manipulate the Collector once more as a distraction to get to the heart of the Isle the Titans Heart. Belos would corrupt the Titan and begin to rise from the Isle; he corrupted the majority of the island in decay and a moss of sorts. But he didnt account the will of the Titan would still be alive his power was passed to Luz and together with Eda, King, and Raine would destroy the Titan stopping it’s rise. Landing back on ground he would beg and plea this man who thought he was so right in his beliefs begging to live begging that Phillip was still in himself he would begin to melt his monstrous self would die under the heel of the very witches who he wanted to prosecute he died alone a shriveling pile of filth and hate and he died afraid.
Experience and Skill
Father
As a being centuries old, it is only natural that Father is an absolute genius. He is one of the most skilled alchemists in the series, which is saying a lot when you consider how Alchemy is far harder than it seems. Performing Alchemy requires knowing the atomic structure of what someone is transmuting. If you’re transmuting what you think is steel, but it is actually carbon, your transmutation won’t work. It is for this reason that alchemists like Edward Elric have memorized the entire periodic table and can recite the whole thing on a whim. Whenever Father is transmuting something, he is taking into account its atomic makeup and flow of energy. This is incredibly impressive when you consider how characters like Father and Edward are able to perform alchemy on the fly so quickly.
Father’s genius transcends typical alchemic knowledge however. His equal in skill, Hohenheim, was able to lay the foundations for an entirely separate form of alchemy called Alkahestry. A form of alchemy powered by the spiritual flow of energy rather than the movement of tectonic plates. Hohenheim additionally discovered and countered Father’s complex multi-century long plan by himself in just a few days. While he did outsmart Father in the end, both were outsmarting each other at different points up until the final battle, showing just how comparable to each other they really are.
What most stands out about Father is his street smarts though, not his book smarts. As mentioned, he and Hohenheim were able to plan out multiple counter measures to each other’s tactics, but Father’s experiences when it comes to manipulation go further than that. Across hundreds of years, Father was able to build Amestris up into being a perfect country sized transmutation circle. Orchestrating battles and conflicts along specific points of the nation’s borders in order to create the necessary points of death. He manipulated Amestris’ higher courts to bend officials to his side, corrupting the government so that all of its pieces were his to abuse.
With all these smarts mentioned, Father’s skill in battle is also nothing to scoff at. While we haven’t seen him fight much, he has shown just how competent he can be during battle. He fought off Edward, Alphonse, and Ling all at the same time by simply just using his alchemy, he never lifted so much as a finger against them. Having perfect battlefield awareness and control, blocking any sort of special maneuver or sneak attack. It’s not like he isn’t opposed to sneak attacks as well of course, as said battlefield control allows him to exploit openings perfectly, such as when he snuck behind Hohenheim to steal some of his souls without him noticing.
Lastly, Father is amazing when it comes to exploiting weaknesses. When cornered by Hohenheim’s group, he released some of his souls as a distraction, exploiting things such as Hohenheim’s past and Izumi’s traumatic parenting experience to get a devastating opening that took Hohenheim out of the fight. Father is crafty, intelligent, and quick to react. It should come as no surprise he was able to outsmart as many people as he did, and gain the upperhand so many times.
Belos
The Emperor of the Boiling Isles, despite his insanity, is an absolute genius. He is a master of magic, being regarded as the strongest magic user in the entire demon realm. This includes witches like Eda and Lilith, natural prodigies capable of mastering all forms of magic. Additionally, the several Coven Heads who are all masters of their respective magic type. Showings of his skill can be seen with how easily he overwhelms Luz in fights, with him easily defeating her in their first encounter without so much as lifting a finger, literally. Even after she drastically improved for the following month, he still easily overwhelmed her with his talents. His battle skill is impressive even without magic, considering how he can use his physiology’s abilities alone to overwhelm the entire Hexside Squad on two different occasions.
It’s not like magic is some easy process either. It can take a lot of concentration, especially when using multiple variants. To use magic, you need to be able to imagine the results of your spells in front of you before casting. This is notable considering how magic users like Eda, Lilith, Amity, Hunter, and more can cast spells at an astonishingly quick rate during combat. And Belos is better than all of them, considering the statements and showings of his knowledge and skill. Even more remarkable considering he wasn’t born in a magical environment, and is likely mostly self taught. Centuries to learn will certainly help.
Apart from battle however, Belos is a wicked schemer and manipulator. He was tricking people into being against “wild magic” for centuries even when he was still called Philip. In one of his earlier adventures as Philip, he still showed expertise in both magic and trickery, forming a proper escape from Luz and Lilith easily while also leading them into fighting a gigantic beast. This isn’t the only time he’s sacrificed others of course, as he had a habit of tricking people time and time again so they could be expendable tools in his expeditions across the Boiling Isles.
Belos is cruel and cold, and will go for the winning move as soon as the opportunity presents itself. If he doesn’t? It’s only because he either doesn’t truly want to hurt you, or has something he needs you alive for. The Emperor of the Boiling Isles is always thinking two steps ahead, always considering what’ll happen next. And considering his intellect and knowledge, it’s safe to say he can nearly always formulate a scenario where what’s next, is what he wants.
Equipment
Father
Vat
Father owns what seems to be a vat of molten metal which is primarily used for re-education of his children. Used on Greed, it manages to kill the Homunculi without destroying his stone, bypassing the regeneration that the Homunculi have. Super lava I guess.
Bodily Weaponry
Due to fathers Homunculus body he can morph (Create matter?) his body into any way he wants, this includes functioning weapons, be it a gun a sword a staff, it doesn’t really matter, as long as Father can think it, he can do it
Belos
Dagger
When Belos was a young lad he was depicted with a dagger. Great for backstabbing. He used this dagger to fight and murder Caleb, his older brother.
Artificial Magic Staff
Unlike the majority of people on the Boiling Isles, Belos does not have the natural ability to perform magic due to lacking the additional organ that all magic users have. To compensate for this, Belos instead wields a staff that can produce artificial magic. This allows him to fuel all sorts of magical spells as long as he is connected to it, being able to conjure blasts of energy, dispel magic shields, or produce smoke. The issue comes with if Emperor Belos loses it, as it would leave his magical skill reliant on Glyphs, of which he carries none on hand. What magic he is capable of will be mentioned alongside his other abilities.
Powers and Abilities
Father
Homunculus Physiology
Father’s physical form is maintained through the power of a Philosopher’s Stone, a red object capable of both solid and liquid shape that provides energy through the power of living beings’ souls. Father has as many souls within him as Hohenheim does, which is 536,329 souls to be exact. Meaning an absurd supply of power, that can fuel a variety of different abilities.
Homunculi are consistently shown to have, frankly, incredible regeneration. Father himself has shrugged off getting stabbed through the skull, Greed could keep regenerating after losing his arm repeatedly and being stabbed several times, Lust could keep regenerating even when reduced to a charred skeleton, etc. As long as a Homunculi’s Philosopher’s Stone remains intact and is not overused, they will keep being able to regenerate. Considering Father’s stone’s location being constantly shifting while also providing a vast power supply, neither of those two weaknesses are really factors. This potent life giving is also what allowed Father to live for so long without issue.
The power of the stone is useful for more than just reconstructing his own body however. Father can use the power of the stone to create energetic barriers that absorb force, and also shoot out a blast of pure alchemic energy. He can also give someone else some of his souls if he so desires, and it is this ability that let Father create the Homunculi in the first place: either by making hosts, or creating independent Philosopher Stones.
Of course while Father’s souls grant him incredible strength, the power he can wield is not unlimited. There is a finite number of souls within him after all. His supply can eventually run out through overuse, which is the very weakness that the main cast exploited in order to leave him more vulnerable. However, that scenario took an entire army of both soldiers and alchemists to force, and Father was already struggling to handle God’s power at the time. So it is unlikely this weakness can be exploited easily whatsoever.
Father’s physiology goes beyond typical homunculus abilities however, as was revealed with his evolved form. More details on that later though.
Alchemy
Alchemy is the scientific manipulation of matter via the use of energies that make up the FMA power system. It is essentially transmutation, being able to shapeshift, extend or deconstruct matter through many forms to an atomic level. Alchemy also comes with its laws, such as the one of equivalent exchange and natural providence. To create something through Alchemy, something of equal value must be given through metaphysical means. These acts are done through the use of Transmutation Circles. Alchemy notably comes with a few steps…
Comprehension: Analyzing the molecular/atomic structure of the target (such as kinetic energy or the flow of potential).
Deconstruction: Using energy to break down the physical structure for it to be reshaped to a new form.
Reconstruction: Continuing the flow of matter to manipulate its physical form to the user’s liking.
However, the natural limits of Alchemy can be ignored via the user’s lifeforce, or a Philosopher’s Stone as it’s described as an “amplifier” of all these processes to create something made up of materials of lesser value compared to the product. But a failed Transmutation attempt would lead to “Alchemic Rebounds” which causes the process to backfire upon the user.
Father’s Demonstrated Alchemy
It’s safe to say that Father is one of if not the best character in the series when it comes to performing Alchemy. While he should obviously be capable of utilizing its basic potential (i.e. forming walls, creating weapons etc), he was shown to heal broken bones to the point they’re tougher than before, liquify the surface he’s standing on to the point he can casually slide through it, and even negate Alchemy. Said negation being possible due to his astonishing control over his own energy that was previously spread across Amestris. Being able to control his energy to this level is also reflected by the incredible precision of his Alchemy. As mentioned before, he could completely heal broken bones within someone in an instant. Similarly, Hohenheim once used Alchemy to rearrange Izumi’s insides.
What is by far most notable about Father’s Alchemy however is how he performs it. Whereas other characters would be required to make a transmutation circle or need to clap their hands together to manifest energy, Father can transmute without moving. While completely motionless, he can create energetic barriers of sheer alchemic energy, send out flurries of spikes, create stone walls, basically any feat of alchemy really. This gives him fantastic battlefield control and allows him to severely punish anyone who dares touch him themselves. As doing so leaves them vulnerable to Father stopping the alchemical process at Deconstruction, and causing a gorey demise.
As an additional note, all of Father’s alchemy is self-sustained. As mentioned before, his supply of souls serves as his own fuel source. Though it stands to reason he could use natural alchemy using the energy of tectonic plates if necessary, though he’s never felt the need.
Soul Absorption
Father has been shown to be able to drain the souls of others. This can be accomplished both through direct contact, as seen with Hohenheim and Greed, or from a distance via some weird red energy. The contact version seems to be faster, as he drained multiple souls out of Hohenheim and Greed in a short period, compared to the ranged version which took a moment to drain single souls from soldiers. Though notably the ranged version can target multiple people at once. The one issue with soul absorption is that Father cannot use any other abilities while performing it. He will have to stop mid-meal to make a barrier if attacked, and if stuck in a physical absorption as seen when Greed tricked him into the process, he cannot use any abilities until he disconnects from his target.
There is some minor disagreement between blog members however because of it being contested whether or not Father can use the ranged variant of the soul absorption without the power of God. As he only used the ranged version while in his God form. There are arguments both for and against soul absorption being a God-only ability, but considering Father is being given the power of God anyways, it isn’t too important to debate this.
Belos
Palisman Physiology
(My favorite)
Centuries ago, Belos used to actually be a 100% normal human being physiologically (because he was not psychologically that’s for sure). Due to this however he only had a normal human lifespan, which didn’t mix well with how long his plans were going to take. Thus, in order to expand his life span (and to maintain his human form due to the Titan’s curse), he started consuming the souls of Palisman. This had repercussions, however, as he was subject to intense monstrous transformations every now and then due to not being able to control the Palisman souls locked within him. Eventually though, thanks to the mistakes of Luz and Hunter, he gained control over his body and was able to use its devastating power.
Belos’ human appearance is a complete facade. In reality, he is a sort of mud-like green creature filled with terrifying strength. He can extend his arms for more reach and potent grapples, dash incredibly quickly, and shape parts of himself in whatever way he deems more fit for the situation. Would it be making giant fists or turning his hands into sharp blades. The most potent aspect of his lack of humanity however would most likely be his survivability. His mud like body makes it easy to morph his body back into frame if it is ever disfigured or punctured, and shift through surfaces.
This is to the point where, if he is ever too damaged, Belos can resort to diving into a creature’s body. From there it can possess them, gaining control of their bodies and being able to use his abilities while still inside them. Additionally while inside someone, Belos can eat at their very being, both causing severe internal damage and healing himself in the process. For example, when Belos possessed Hunter, he went from being on death’s door to being able to cross a large portion of the Isles in minutes while also leaving a previously healthy Hunter comatose. It is not like his possession takes a large portion of his body to initiate either. With just a small bit of goop, he can shift his consciousness and expand his control. All he needs is an opening as small as a cut on a finger, and he’s in business.
Glyphs
Centuries prior to Luz arriving on the Boiling Isles, Belos uncovered the power of Glyphs while he was still going by the name Philip. Glyphs are circular drawings that one can create that, when activated, will perform magic depending on the drawn pattern by using the natural magic of the Titan. Belos has discovered a variety of Glyphs, and it is safe to say he can make a Glyph of any spell he knows. Though at that point, simply using his staff would be more efficient. Hence why we only ever see him use Glyph magic when he doesn’t have said staff on hand. Likewise, he does not carry Glyph drawings with him like Luz does, and thus to use Glyph magic he would have to make drawings mid-fight. Below are the glyphs he can use.
Light Magic: While not used often in a combat applicable sense, it has been shown to blind opponents. Creating light sources can also be useful when trapped in dark spaces. This is something Emperor Belos has demonstrated he can do, creating multi-coloured light blasts to wow individuals.
Fire Magic: Fire magic creates fire, duh. Using this allows the user to create projectiles of fire. Sticking this to an object will allow that object to catch fire.
Ice Magic: Ice magic allows the user to summon a large pillar of ice. This pillar can also be refined down to make sculptures and other complex shapes.
Plant Magic: Used to rapidly grow plants that can be controlled to bind foes in vines or just swing them around.
Given the intelligence of Emperor Belos, he should be able to use glyph combinations. As stated earlier he himself states to be better than Luz, who figured these out in less amount of time.
Hover: Who needs a parachute when you can hover? You can break someone's fall with this, so no need for air safety. This can also be applied to objects to cause them to hover as well.
Invisibility: For as long as the user holds their breath, they may remain invisible. This specific glyph was actually used against Belos himself, Luz hid an item behind her back with it.
Mist: Creates a thick mist which obscures the view of people, pretty simple.
Water: Creates some water, simple.
Wind: Creates a small vortex of wind which can suck up items.
Teleportation
Deserving its own section, one of the Glyphs that Emperor Belos mastered was the act of teleportation. By drawing a complex sequence of multiple different glyphs, Belos can teleport himself (or a group of people) to a location he desires. Clearly he got good at using this sequence, or tired of drawing the same one every time, being able to deconstruct and reconstruct his form to teleport.
Telekinesis
Belos can, by seemingly causing a red glow around you, send you in any direction he pleases. He’s done this to Luz and Eda before. He completely makes you still freeze you if he wants it allows full control over the victim with a flick.
Petrification
A spell Belos is quite familiar with is the petrification spell. Traditionally only used as the highest level punishment, Belos is able to incase people in unmoving stone which once complete, cannot be reversed. The method of activation seems to either be direct contact (as seen with Luz) or through a blast from his staff. Additionally, the petrification will not be stopped until Belos wants it to be stopped or if the source of it is interrupted, making it incredibly deadly. A smaller glyph version of this spell exists which petrified a toy.
Telepathy
Do you wanna traumatize someone? Why not speak to them telepathically? Although the GIF doesn’t do it justice, Belos is speaking to Luz telepathically. When Luz, Willow, and Gus attempt to take something from Belos he speaks to them through this.
Summoning
Ever needed a friend? Well Emperor Belos can summon a massive worm creature to swallow you whole. Luz murders it in cold blood though. He’s also summoned Flesh-like tendrils to grip people, such as when it happened to Lillith.
Earth Manipulation
Look, he creates these sharp spikes out of rocks, nothing much more to talk about.
Miscellaneous
Of course there is far more magic shown across the isles than Belos has shown himself in his own fights. Considering Belos is regarded as one of if not the strongest and most skilled user of magic on the isles, it would make sense that he is not limited to just the spells he has shown. Other potential options will be compiled here.
Abomination: Abominations are large, gooey, purple creatures that can be commanded to do actions to those who summon it. Due to their flexible and malleable and gooey nature, it’s pretty hard to damage them. You can also create items such as gauntlets.
Bard: By using music and other sounds, you can do a bunch of different things. Perhaps you need your targets asleep, you need to control their body, conjure up a musical instrument, or perhaps you need to play a tune for your lost love! Or you can just create shockwaves I guess.
Beast Keeping: The ability to summon and command animals to do actions for you.
Construction: By giving themselves a strength boost, the construction coven can build some really impressive things! Or they can just create them through a spell and get rid of the need for manual labor.
Healing: You can heal in the healing coven. Although some have been shown to create barriers with it as well.
Illusion Magic: Illusion magic can be used to create fake intangible copies of oneself, create magical objects, dispel other illusions, or go as far as shift the environment and make it seem like someone’s arms are decaying into dust. Of course, illusion magic cannot make something real. It is a trick of the eyes and ears, and only those senses. Stronger versions of illusion magic have been shown to lock people in their own minds like when Gus had a mental breakdown, however this seems more like an exclusive power of Gus’ rather than someone anyone with illusion magic can pull off with enough practice.
Oracle: With the Oracle coven, you can summon ghost-like spirits to fight for you, tell you things about the future, show others their own future, fire energy blasts, or harass you telepathically.
Plant: You can control vines and plants with this. Hey, since the glyph for plants exists, isn’t this useless? Well, to give the plant coven some credit, the strongest users of this coven can conjure entire hedge mazes.
Mind Manipulation: Using his staff he pushed Eda’s Owl Beast mind back, letting her take control of the body.
Resistances
Father
Transmutation: Father was able to ignore Scar’s Deconstruction Alchemy when it was used on him (Debatable)
Heat/Magma: Negated entirely getting molten fluid poured on him
Belos
Magic Absorption Resistance: While in Hunter's body, Belos resisted having his magic drained from Vee the basilisk.
Mind Manipulation: When Luz and Hunter entered the mind of Emperor Belos, he was able to manipulate it in such a way to let the two see what he wanted them to see. He could shapeshift his form, drag Hunter into the ground, and retain his memories when they left.
Forms
Father
“Evolved” Form
After centuries of developing his skill and knowledge, the body that Father had obtained by copying Hohenheim’s own physique became nothing more than a shell. Quite literally a skin suit he slid out of to recover after it took too much damage. Eventually, Father’s true homunculus body was able to establish a more solid shape, revealing a terrifying monster coated in eyes and darkness. In his evolved state, Father wields all of the same skill and power he contained before, but his new physiology makes him even more of a terror to fight,
He can absorb matter into his body and expel it out with twice the size and force, and also use this method to either contain or break down anything or anyone his body traps. He would have absorbed Hohenheim’s souls through this method if not for the fact that doing so would cause him extensive harm. All of his eyes additionally act as bonus surveillance, which in conjunction with his attack absorption makes him practically immune to sneak attacks.
Notably, Father can also morph his body to accomplish whatever he desires. He can turn his arms into blades, his head into rope, or as mentioned before, just make a dead ass functional gun. With eyes. What.
Giant Form (Souls of Amestris)
Upon the arrival of the “Promised Day”, Father absorbed all of the souls in Amestris. By Mustang’s estimations, this meant he had over fifty million souls within his body. With this absurd amount of power, Father was able to grow to a size that dwarfed the country itself as he reached into space to claim the power of God from the opening Door of Truth. This space segment is the only time we have ever seen this form in action, but we can logically guess that the form functions as a massively stronger version of Father’s previous evolved form due to the greater quantity of souls.
“God” Father
The apex of alchemy. This is the form that Father obtained after absorbing the power of “God” (or Truth, the World, the Universe, he calls himself a lot of things). The power Father wields in this form is far beyond anything else in the series and he makes that crystal clear. He can smite opponents with lightning, create tornados, passively generate force fields, create destructive miniature suns through nuclear fusion, generate shockwaves, shoot massive blasts of energy, and all of his previous capabilities with alchemy are greatly enhanced. He has the same shape shifting abilities as his evolved form, and the power of God means that he basically has two massively powerful energy sources stored within him.
It is worth noting though that were Father’s soul supply to be diminished too much (say by having it drained by a magic country sized counter alchemy circle), he will be unable to use the full power of God. Both due to it being too much power, and being too dangerous to tap into. Losing way too much of his stone supply outright causes God’s power to straight up kill him. Though for that to happen, he would have to lose probably around over 99% of his supply. So it isn’t realistic.
Belos
True Form
As mentioned before, Belos human form is merely a facade at this point. As his true form is actually a terrifying, muddy, wendigo-like monster. It is capable of all the things Belos could already do with his physiology, however, it dials both the physical prowess and insanity up to 11. Being far superior to characters like Luz and the Hexside kids, winning a 1V5 against Luz, Amity, Gus, Willow, and Hunter without any notable damage. Though as mentioned, the insanity dials up, as in this form Belos becomes far more blood thirsty and crazy, to the point he’s even seen ghostly visions of the several clones of his brother. Yikes.
Titan Belos
After Belos’ failure to end the Boiling Isles, he struck gold when he realized he could possess the Titan’s heart. Upon doing so, his essence began spreading across the isles as he merged with the Titan corpse the isles were built on. While he is in possession of the Titan, Belos cannot control its entire body fully. At least, he cannot initially. Given enough time, it’s possible he could walk around the planet through the body of the giant. In spite of this flaw however, the form is still horrifying.
While in possession of the Titan, Belos’ weird moss will spread across the Isles passively. This moss is incredibly dangerous, deteriorating and weakening whatever it comes into contact with. When Luz had just a little drop fall on her finger, it quickly went on to cover her entire body and kill her with none of her body remaining after the death.
Belos can also spread this moss by shooting out a destructive beam across the isles. Said beam coming from his primary consciousness that’s focused in at his original palace, where his body is located alongside the Titan’s heart. If his body were to be separated from the heart, him and the heart would be toast. Damage anywhere else across the isles wouldn’t be productive at all though, meaning he only has one vulnerable spot.
Feats
Father
Overall
Defeated Edward, Alphonse, Ling, Hohenheim, May, Fuyumi, & Greed
Created the seven Homunculi from his removed emotions
Successfully had control over the nation of Amestris for hundreds of years from the shadows
Succeeded at absorbing the souls of Amestris and claiming the power of God…
…until the souls were taken back.
Tamed the power of God to the point he could perform nuclear fusion and other scientific miracles
Successful single father
Power
In base form:
Restrained Ed, Al, Izumi, Roy, and Hohenheim at the same time.
Conjured a large stone structure which tried to crush Hohenheim.
Creates a stone dragon construct which clashes with Hohenheim’s stone dragon.
Father created a large shockwave which parted clouds above central (72.1 - 101 megatons of TNT)
With the souls of Amestris:
Moved his country sized body through the vacuum of space
As God Father:
After absorbing the Earth’s Gate of Truth, he is stated to be able to create worlds (Debatable, possibly Planet level)
Could potentially be Star level through similar reasoning with the mini-Sun
Possibly Universal level depending on how you interpret the word “worlds” within the context of FMA (considering how the Truth also calls the universe a “world”)
Durability
In base form:
Endured Hohenheim’s souls revolting against him.
With the souls of Amestris:
Withstood (maybe caused) a large display of light once he reached Truth
As God Father:
Yeah he doesn’t take hits often
Speed
In base form:
Able to keep up with Hohenheim in combat.
With the souls of Amestris:
As God Father:
Belos
Overall
Defeated Luz (three times), Eda, Lilith, King, Amity, Willow, Gus, Hunter, and Raine.
Manipulated the people of Boiling Isles for centuries.
Successfully found and obtained The Collector.
Successfully conducted the Day of Unity and drained the witches’ magic…
…until The Collector backstabbed him.
Claimed the power of the Titan and nearly destroyed the isles.
“Successful” single uncle
Power
In base form:
In Monster form:
As Titan Belos
Belos began to spread his goop all around The Titan. (135 Gigatons of TNT-1.5 Teratons of TNT)
In the same feat, he moved the Collectors home (344 Gigatons of TNT)
Durability
In base form:
In Monster form:
As Titan Belos
like Father, Belos doesn't get hit very often
Speed
In base form:
Dodges an attack from Beast Eda (Seen Above)
In Monster form:
As Titan Belos
Scaling
Images made by Coach Boomer.
Father
Alchemists
It is a large plot point in the story that Father is able to disable traditional alchemy by blocking off the energy required for alchemy that comes from the shifting of the earth’s crust. He can even turn off alchemy altogether by blocking said energy completely. This would make him automatically scale to any alchemist power wise, if the fact that he dominates characters like Edward and Alphonse in fights isn’t enough evidence already. Beating those two and others casually would also solidify speed scaling. And all of this isn’t even without bringing up the God shaped elephant in the room. Some of these feats and calculations come courtesy of G1’s Frieren vs Hohenheim blog so shout out to them!
Ed survives a blast that collapses an entire part of a mineshaft
The blast was amped by a Philosopher's stone that Kimblee used
Ed created a giant stone golem with his alchemy (9.1 Kilotons of TNT)
Edward can casually dodge gunfire
Roy can demolish tall ice walls that are produced by Isaac McDougal (0.4 Tons of TNT - 2.2 kilotons of TNT)
Hohenheim endured a majority of God Fathers blast, which obliterated Central Palace (4.1 kilotons of TNT)
Philosopher’s Stones, the 7 Homunculi, and Hohenheim
The souls contained within Philosopher’s Stones directly serve as a power source. The more souls a stone has, the more power it can output. Considering Father has more souls than any other stone in the series, and the fact that the Homunculi are powered by very miniscule fractions of Father’s own soul supply, there is 0 doubt he should scale to other stones and the homunculi. As for Hohenheim, he has the exact same number of souls within him and directly matched his power in their fight. Outsmarting him with his evolved form and later completely demolishing him with the power of God. Safe to say, Father is at the top of the Philosopher’s Stone food chain. Some of these feats and calculations come courtesy of G1’s Frieren vs Hohenheim blog so shout out to them!
A Philosopher’s stone was used by Kimblee to destroy a town in Ishval (33.2 Kilotons of TNT)
Those same stones were stated to be able to “wipe towns off the map” (190.6 - 672.6 Kilotons of TNT)
Hohenheim blocked and intercepted an electrical attack from full-power god Father.
Isaac McDougal planned to use a Philosopher’s stone to create huge ice structure that would span across Central City (9.7 Megatons of TNT)
A good amount of Hohenheim’s soul supply was able to power a transmutation circle that produced immense amounts of electricity in space (5 Petatons of TNT)
Pride was able to send his shadows across Amestris in a short time. (Mach 25.2)
Belos
Residents of the Owl House
Apart from when he got one tapped by Collector or when he’s finally defeated at the end of the series, Belos always has the upper hand in fights. He easily defeated Luz in both the season 1 and 2 finales, and nearly killed her when in his true form even when she had help. He’s additionally far superior to his subordinates. This includes Lilith who was nigh equal to Eda, Hunter who easily can defeat King, and the Coven Heads who restrain Hooty. All of this is without his Titan state that was shrugging off a rage amplified by Eda and King with 0 effort.
Gus lifts this large bone (159.6kg)
Gus burns a large amount of vines (37.5 Tons of TNT)
Luz could create a large amount of snow (44.9 Tons of TNT)
Luz makes a large ice wall (1.4-7.3 Kilotons of TNT)
She makes 2 more large chunks of ice (740.8 Tons of TNT-3.775 Kilotons of TNT)
Luz destroys a large portion of the ground upon awakening her palisman (33.7 Kilotons of TNT-4 Megatons of TNT)
Stringbean also generates a cylinder explosion upon birth (2.151-258 Kilotons of TNT)
Luz generates a large pillar of magic when activating the teleportation glyph (1.6 Megatons-3 Gigatons of TNT)
Outspeeds the Basilisk's tackle (12-21.5m/s)
She also dodges magic crossbow fire (331.69m/s)
Pilot’s Owlbert flying at high-speeds (Mach 2.33)
Her fire glyph sends Hunter flying far enough to create a horizon twinkle (Mach 14.5-58)
King was able to destroy the Titan Finger (3 Kilotons of TNT)
The Titan Finger was capable of dispersing clouds (969 Megatons of TNT)
Luz, along with Amity caused a massive earthquake throughout Bonesborough and the Titan's arm (5.14 Gigatons of TNT for each) (Debatable)
Eda dodged cloud to ground lightning used by Raine (Mach 151-678)
Eda’s wind magic lifted Amity’s large Abomination (43,085kg)
Hunter flies away at high-speeds (156.45m/s)
Hunter lifts a giant body of boiling water to create a fist (172,854.87kg)
Lilith reacted to Eda’s blast attack. (Mach 31.4-0.024c) (Debatable)
Lilith did this feat again later on. (Mach 532-0.414c) (Debatable)
Reacted to Luz’s light glyph’s blast. (1.0c) (Debatable)
The Titan, Titan Luz, and the Collector (Debatable see BTV)
During the finale of the series, Luz and Belos used their respective Titan powers to fight one another. This is notable given how strong Luz’s new power had made her, as well as the fact both could be comparable to the Collector. As fully grown Titans are stated to be the strongest guys around him. However, given Belos was only inhabiting a corpse. As well as some other details, it’s debatable as to whether or not his Titan body would properly scale to The Owl House’s titanic top tiers. More on that later.
Titan Luz destroyed a large amount of Belos’ moss with a single blast (540 exatons - 1.49 Zettatons of TNT)
Taking into consideration the moss is visibly layered on top of bone (1.041-2.872 Zettatons of TNT)
The Titan’s sheer size in it’s prime could generate a huge amount of energy (507 Petatons of TNT-7.68 Exatons of TNT) or (1.4 Exatons of TNT)
Was responsible for generating a large constellation glyph in the sky (40 Exatons of TNT) or (557 Zettatons of TNT)
The Collector could casually move the moon with a swipe of his finger (457 Yottatons of TNT - 12.291 Ronnatons of TNT)
Makes his home which covers the Titan’s Skull and lifts it (2.667e+14kg)
Flies back “home to the stars” and “was in the area” after a timeskip (2.12-8,159c) (See BTV)
Miscellaneous
For everyone who didn’t deserve their own section, sorry!
Random Coven Guard makes and pushes a rock statue (2,924.38kg)
Gwendolyn lifts this crystal (7,725.9kg)
Random construction witch lifts this rock (48,502.5kg)
The Green Thumb Gauntlet could create large trees (94.723-11.13 Megatons of TNT)
Kikimora could destroy a large portion of the ground (251 Tons of TNT-30.1 Kilotons of TNT)
Pinet turns his head with a light spell flashbang (0.287c) (Debatable)
Weaknesses
Father
Father’s grip on his god-like powers isn’t limitless, as his body and soul may wear out overtime to the power of the Truth who didn’t want to fuse in the first place and actively opposed him. If he lacks a sufficient amount of souls, he cannot utilize the power of Truth, and having none at all will lead to him being dragged into the Gate of Truth and being tortured for what is implied to be eternity. On that note, his supply of souls is not limitless, and he will have to rely on it if the power of God is not an option. If he loses enough souls his body can be simply killed by fists, as Ed demonstrated at the end of his fight. Father also cannot use alchemy and soul absorption at the same time, demonstrated many times here.
Belos
If gone long enough, Belos’ curse would get the best of him if he hasn’t consumed enough Palisman Souls (or anything to possess) to continue thriving. Causing his monstrous body to wear down and melt overtime until he fades to a pile of mush. Given the fact that Belos isn’t magical himself, getting his staff away would severely limit his options when it comes to direct combat. As he does not carry glyphs on hand and if he would need to use them, they would have to be drawn mid-fight.
He’s also one cocky individual. He betrayed The Collector, the most powerful being, and trusted that Luz wanted to come back home to the Human Realm with him.
Before the Verdict
Cosmic God Father?
One of the most contentious parts of this blog is God Father and his scaling to the Truth. Some people claim that Father can create planets and entire universes. So speaking on his creation abilities, him creating a sun wasn’t actually a full-sun, it was a pseudo sun. Additionally, the statement of him being able to “create worlds” is actually a mistranslation, it was just referring to the pseudo sun. Without these, there’s no other cosmic feats/statements you could give him. The only way to argue this level of Father is through him fully scaling to The Truth. But it’s important to note that The Truth actively didn’t want to merge and join with Father, it actively fought back against Father. Making it unlikely he’d be actually utilizing Truth’s full power.
Collector Scaling
To scaling Belos to The Collector, some people might be surprised and roll their eyes at this, but hear us out. Titan Magic is the strongest magic in all of The Owl House, as it’s directly stated Archivists were weak against Titan Magic, which Emperor Belos has thanks to him being directly connected with the Titan of the Boiling Isles. Collector, who is a child of the Archivists, is far weaker than the stronger Archivists, so general scaling should be fine. Not only that, but a beam from Belos was implied to be able to kill The Collector, it’s the entire reason why Luz had to throw her body infront of the blast from Belos. Speed scaling is also fine, since Belos is shown reacting to the Collector. In terms of movement speed, nobody has been shown to move at the same speeds as The Collector. Not only that but the one calc, the star travel one, assumes FTL speeds and gives large assumptions on the timeframes.
Now let's talk about Galaxy Room. So, for those who don’t know, The Collector creates a galaxy sized room to sleep in revealed in a creator statement. However, we should remember that The Collector is a reality warper who can create whatever they want. Scaling this to their AP, and by scaling Belos, is pretty disingenuous. Some people argue that The Collector is using his full magic in his attacks, such as his telekinesis, but this is an entirely separate ability to his creation. You have to compare two completely different things and call them the same. Even if you bought this, it’s a massive outlier to what we see consistently within the Owl House. The biggest thing we see The Collector do is move the moon, so jumping all the way to galaxy level is a massive outlier.
There’s also a statement from King that his kind, the Titans, can burn planets. For one, it burns the surface of planets, so this would be a multi-continental feat anyway. If you want to believe that they fully destroy planets, you should remember that King is a notorious liar who loves to talk himself and The Titans up.
For a potential counter argument, it’s possible Belos’s titan form is significantly less powerful than Titan Luz, since Titan Luz blasted away Belos’s attacks every time he tried something, and the blast Belos tried to use on Collector was blocked by Stringbean, so if you use that to scale Belos to large planet level, you’d also have to scale Stringbean to large planet level. The only time Titan Luz doesn’t easily blast away Belos is when she tries to pull him out of the Titan’s heart, which she still does, it just takes her about 30 seconds. Based on how well he does against characters like base Luz and Raine (who doesn’t have his palisman), and how much Luz essentially one shot’s Belos’s defenses, it’s possible he wouldn’t scale to the Collector, only Luz would, and Belos’s best scaling would be his direct feats.
Relativistic/FTL Owl House
Another point of contention within the blog is the relativistic and FTL calcs for The Owl House. Let’s look at the three Owl house Relativistic/FTL calcs and discuss their issues, shall we?
The first feat, Pinel turning his head with a light spell flashbang. This feat is pretty bad thanks to the fact that Pinet gets hit and doesn’t react to it, he just moves away. It’s a pretty invalid feat.
Lilith reacted to Eda’s blast attack. (Mach 31.4-0.024c) and Lilith did this feat again later on. (Mach 532-0.414c)
This next feat is confusing, since Eda’s magic doesn’t have any electrical or light-based properties. It’s incredibly hard to call this anything close to lightning or light. We see Raine, who has lightning, which is way different to what Eda uses. A pretty weird feat on so many levels.
Now with this feat, it’s pretty good. Luz is notably using the light glyph here given the color. It isn’t fire, plant, or ice, and she uses glyphs before attacking. It’s a pretty fine feat since Lilith blocks it. It’s also important to note that Titan Belos would upscale the lower end feats by a large amount.
Giving Belos The Glyphs And Coven Powers
Our last stop on this before the verdict tour, glyphs and the coven powers. The Glyphs combinations are the most blatant, Belos states that it took him years for him to learn glyph combinations, implying that he knows these combinations. He’s also older and smarter than Luz, and has ten times as much experience.
Him being one of the strongest users of magic on the Boiling Isles should justify giving him the Coven Powers. The Emperor’s Coven allows people to use every time of magic, even fodder foot soldiers whose knowledge should be far below anything that Belos can do. Does that mean he should be able to do very complex powers? No, it’s unlikely he had time or a want to focus on them, but basic powers are fine. It should also be noted he could likely use Hunter's powers, but we haven’t really brought those up here.
Fight Script
Introducing something new, Saul’s VS Blog will now likely have consistent fight scripts written by me. Before this, I made a Father Belos script on my own, so I'll be using that here instead. IT WILL NOT SPOIL THE VERDICT OF THE BLOG AS I MADE IT BEFORE THE BLOG.
Thumbnails/Art
(TN by Albeanies1)
(TN by Sherm)
(TN by Fenic)
(TN by Toxin)
(Art by CadenDaMonkay)
Verdicts
Team Father
Starting off Base to Base, Belos has a significant speed advantage, while Father has a significant AP advantage. So like every speed vs ap fight, does Belos have any hax to deal with Father’s durability, and does Father have a way to actually hit Belos. Belos has a significantly diverse arsenal, but none of it really puts father down for good. Belos’s best bet is Petrification or Possession. Unfortunately Petrification takes a couple seconds, giving Father time to eject the petrified parts of himself off of himself and regenerate. And possession would also be a bad choice, because Father has hundreds of thousands of souls within himself. Belos would essentially just add himself to the pile, trapping himself within father. As for whether Father can tag Belos, he has a couple options. He could just drop a massive aoe, and that would get the job done. But if that doesn’t work, he could pull a page from Pride’s book, use his body to create a transmutation circle, and absorb Belos’s soul. Overall, base to base Father is just a little too immortal for Belos to deal with.
When it comes to God Father vs Titan Belos, Father has good arguments for winning, mostly down to how their abilities interact and who has better win cons. Stats are almost meaningless here. Belos still has the speed advantage, but in Titan form he isn’t dodging anything. And passive deconstruction would let Father take apart attacks and overcome Titan Belos’s even if he was more powerful than Father, which is possible, but not 100%. Father can potentially scale to planet level based on statements, while Belos scaling to Titan Luz and the Collector is contentious. Assuming Titan Belos is a lot stronger, not much changes. Father has 3 primary win conditions. The first being by absorbing his soul, which he would have no issue doing. The biggest problem is when he absorbs someone’s soul, he can’t use his deconstruction shield, so the moss could attack him while he’s stealing Belos’s soul. However, the shield would automatically come back up, so while the soul steal would be interrupted, father would still be safe.
So father just has to get to a position where he’d be safe from the moss for a certain amount of time, such as making a giant platform come out of the boiling sea, and he’d be able to absorb Belos’s soul uninterrupted. Second, he could find the Titan’s heart and deconstruct it, essentially by just walking through Titan Belos until he finds a weak point, such as a giant heart. With his deconstruction abilities, no wall or attack can hinder father, especially since Belos’s moss attacks scale below the alchemist's father was dealing with. It might take a while to find the heart, but considering it took the alchemists at least 10 minutes to wear father’s souls down, and he’d have at a bare minimum 100 times the souls here than he’d have there, Father would have plenty of time to get creative, it’s unlikely Belos would be able to wear him down that quick before he can find the heart, especially considering Father can take to the skies. Thirdly, if Belos keeps hitting him with fire breath, Father could just figure out what the attack is made of after a couple of shots, and hit Belos with his own attacks. Meanwhile, Belos’s win condition is wearing down father until he’s out of soul. You cannot overpower deconstruction Alchemy, it is a process which disassembles the atomic structure of what it’s effecting, hitting harder won’t stop your atoms from being destroyed, meaning Belos’ only option would be to outlast it. Which is going to take a while no matter how you slice it. Even if Belos manages to somehow get some moss on father, based on the speed it corrupts someone(it took about 10 seconds to fully spread across Luz), father could just eject the part of his body that’s being consumed and regenerate.
Overall, Father has a lot of options to win, making his victory likely. This isn’t taking into account that Belos might not even scale to the collector or Titan Luz at all in AP, and just has durability negation. Belos himself has a 20 terraton feat, but that would still be below Father’s petaton scaling, which would essentially make it so Belos has no win conditions, since father could just overpower him, and the moss would never be able to touch father due to his shield. The shield is the big thing here, Belos has no solid ways past it besides outlasting, which gives Father plenty of time to get in one of his one shot options and put this meekly human down for good.
Team Belos
Stats
Getting right into the blog let’s look at stats. In terms of strength, I won’t lie, Belos is pretty outclassed here. Even if you give him the most generous amount of strength by scaling him to the island level earthquake (the 5.14 Gigaton one which has tons of contention around it), Belos is still weaker than Father. Father scales to Hohenheim who can power up transmutation circles that get to 5 Petatons of TNT. So, in base, Father is much stronger than Emperor Belos.
In terms of speed, however, Belos is much faster. Father in base should scale above his children, like Pride, who can travel at Mach 25. Although, because of a scaling chain, with Hohenheim blocking an attack from full-power Father, he would likely scale to the Mach 1338-Mach 1508 feat of giant form grabbing God out of the sky. Although arguments exist against this, mainly the idea that Father had millions of souls fused into him when he performed this feat and above the base state that Hohenhiem matched. However, souls in FMA don’t inherently increase speed, the only real example is Sloth but that’s more to speed. It’s understandable if people feel weird to scale this since you’re scaling an amped form of Father to Hohenheim blocking an electrical attack back down to base Father.
Belos at his worst is upscaling Eda dodging Raine’s attacks, which get to Mach 151-678. This would put him way faster than the Mach 25 feat that Father is at if you only buy the Pride upscaling, but slower if you buy the space grab out of the sky. Of course, there’s one other feat, the 1.0c feat from Lilith blocking the blast from Luz. This would make it, base to base, a huge speed difference. What about Titan VS Titan?
It gets a whole lot worse for Father in higher forms. His stats don’t particularly get a huge buff, as the creation of planets is a mistranslation he should only really be upscaling the 5 Petatons of TNT by an unknown amount. In terms of speed, he should now scale to the Mach 1338-Mach 1508 feat of grabbing God out of the sky. For Belos though, he gains a massive stat advantage. In terms of physical strength, Emperor Belos should scale to The Collector, who moved the moon 12.3 Ronnatons of TNT. He should also speed up depending on where you place The Collector traveling across the stars feat, Belos is going to be much faster. It’s Mach 1338-Mach 1508 vs 2.12-8.159c. In titan, Belos is far stronger and faster in Titan than Father. (Of course this isn’t movement speed, have you seen how bro is?)
This is of course ignoring all the other feats that Titan Belos could scale to/have. He himself would scale to the 19.764 Teraton feat, which is weaker than the Petaton TNT calc, but then you have him scaling to either The Titan or Luz herself. Luz gets into the Zettatons with the amount of moss she destroyed, and The Titans light constellation gets also in the Zettatons.
Abilities/Arsenal
Let’s run through their arsenal and abilities, so let’s look at everything Father can do. In terms of his Arsenal he doesn’t have much, a vat that can’t move and the ability to shapeshift himself into weapons, cool. His abilities though? This makes things so much more interesting. Father, being a Homunculus, has 536,329 souls inside of his body in base. This allows him to, for as long as he has souls, to keep regenerating from harm. This includes having his skin entirely burnt off, which is cool. For as long as Father has access to the stone, he can do many things, such as shoot alchemic energy and create children by making others drink his stone goop. Alchemy allows for him to reconstruct and deconstruct things, doing so without the need to touch anything, it makes him a pretty deadly foe. Not only that, individuals who touch him risk an automatic deconstruction or shockwave. Then we have the soul absorption, a physical move which he performed on Hohenheim and Greed. If Father got close to him, Belos would be screwed.
So thanks to that major speed advantage that Emperor Belos has, it allows him to avoid many of Fathers wincons. In base his main win con is using deconstruction alchemy to blow Belos away or absorbing his soul, two things he would need to get close for. Emperor Belos has many ways to prevent this from happening. His teleportation and telekinesis allows him to directly remove himself, or Father, from close proximity to where he would get hurt. With the specific abilities of the coven heads, he could create an illusion of himself to trick Father or potentially see into the future with the Oracle coven and dodge before it even happened. A brief mention that possession would likely not work, Father would likely be able to absorb the soul of Belos into him and win like that.
How can Belos win? Well it’s not going to be by whittling Father down, at least not in base. Due to the amount of souls that Father has inside of his body, the physical stat-gap, and what Belos can use, there isn’t really going to be a way for Emperor Belos to use his magic or rocks to get past Father, but he does have petrification. Petrification would turn Father to stone, bypassing the regenerative options of the Philosopher's Stone. Not only that but if Emperor Belos managed to petrify the Philosopher's Stone, Father would just die. Now, I hear some of you screaming in the back, the speed of the petrification. Now it differs between members of this blog but i’ll try and explain our thoughts on it.
The big ‘debunk’ of petrification speed is the scene with Luz where it moves significantly slower. Firstly, if you watch the scene, you’ll notice it moving at various speeds, as it covers the bottom half of Luz’s body in a few seconds before beginning to significantly slow down. Why? Because of Belos. Luz in this scene is appealing to his ego and sense of justice. She offers to act as a guide to the human world, knowing she can’t beat him, appealing to his want to save humanity. He’s intentionally letting her talk, why? Because Luz reminds Belos of Celeb, his brother. They’re two people who entered the demon realm, got lured by magic, and made friends with witches, with the only difference being that Belos had to kill Celeb. If he can save Luz he’d have proof that the Demon Realm was real and a sense of justice. This is also backed up by the fact of him reversing it, which moves at a much quicker pace. The other instances of petrification also back up its quicker speed. You have the doll, which petrified instantly when Luz used her glyph. You have Owl Beast Eda, where the petrification took up half of her body. You also have the people we see petrified, who are frozen while screaming/in fear, implying they had no time to react. Perhaps the most important one is the Eda, since the beam she was hit with wasn’t continuous, starting and stopping. Belos could do the same to Father, constantly re-applying stacks of petrification in beam form, eventually depleting Fathers souls IF he can remove the pieces of him that are getting petrified in time. There’s no reason to assume that with the speed advantage that Belos couldn’t keep this up, even then, it’s debatable if Father would have enough time to remove the stone pieces from his body before it would costume him or the stone.
Let’s move onto the higher forms of God vs Titan and their abilities. The two main important things here are barrier creation and long range soul stealing. For the barrier creation, Belos has two main ways of getting around this. He’s stronger or he can be overwhelmed. For the first argument Tru brought up a point from another user that the energies of Scar and Father canceled each other out when deconstruction was performed on Father, which implies that a stronger source of energy could perhaps overwhelm deconstruction. With Belos being far stronger than Father in this form he could overwhelm the deconstruction barrier that Father has around him at all times. Even then we know that a large amount of damage can eventually burn down and overwhelm the barrier, although this may take awhile, Belos can produce goop that has a quantity enough to cover the Boiling Isles. Remember that in the final fight simple weapons from the military were helping destroy the barrier, which means that the moss could as well. In God, depending on who you ask, he has access to long-ranged soul absorption. One major issue is the fact that Father cannot use soul sucking and barrier protection at the same time. Now, if Father were to get attacked, the barrier would simply activate and disrupt the soul sucking. The fact that Belos would have so much moss that he could produce would mean that Father would have to keep destroying it over and over again means that his main win con of soul absorption is no longer a thing. Oh, deconstructing his heart isn’t a good win con as well, as it would require him to reach the top of The Titan and blow his chest open. Many of us agree that Titan Belos would likely be standing in the fight and be way too big for Father to even touch. What can Belos do? Well his moss and attacks can negate durability, it kills base Luz and almost kills The Collector, so all he really needs is one good hit. All Father can do is sit around and wait for his own death, a fitting end if you ask me.
Any Other Factors
Trying to argue who is more intelligent, manipulative, and experienced is basically up to interpretation. They’ve both been around for hundreds of years scheming plans to eventually kill everyone on their land. Quantifying this would be difficult and is really irrelevant to the points of the conversation, since they both understand their specific power systems (Alchemy and Magic) incredibly well, arguably being the smartest in their verse on these factors. (excluding gods like Papa Titan and The Truth). Manipulation wouldn’t matter since they couldn’t get each other to trust one another even if they tried, they’ll likely just kill on sight.
Belos begins to take some of the more important factors now. His versatility and range are far better than anything Father can do, what he can do with his magical abilities far supasses that Father can do with his alchemy in terms of versatility, although this likely isn’t a huge factor for the debate. The range though likely is as Father works more at close range than long range which is usually what Belos uses.
Now we have their bodies. Base to base you have Belos body which potentially, if the fight goes on long enough, could begin to fall apart due to him not absorbing a juicy Palisman, but the timeframe is generally unknown between when Belos needs to absorb a palisman and not so he could likely keep fighting in base for enough time to beat Father. In their higher forms, Belos only gets more powerful when he’s connected to the Titan as he gains more control, while Father in god form begins to lose control of god. Considering Titan is likely a battle of stalling, Father could potentially lose control of his power.
Conclusion
To put all of our arguments together, Belos should be stronger in Titan and significantly faster at all times. With his teleportation, telekinesis, and coven head powers, it should mean that Father can never pull off any of his wincons in base while Belos can constantly apply petrification till Father is gone. In Titan,again, Father cannot pull off his main wincons thanks to him having to constantly put up the barrier to not be killed by the moss. It might take awhile, but Father can’t do anything to prevent it. Looking through everything, we have come to the conclusion that Belos wins.
Summary
Father
Advantages:
Stronger if Collector and Titan scaling isn’t used
Faster if light timing Owl House isn’t used
Belos has no instant way past his barrier…
Soul Absorption and Deconstruction can one shot Belos if he gets the chance to use them
Has more than enough souls to last the entire fight
Can easily counter petrification and the moss
THE VAT
The power of the sun in the palm of his hands.
Disadvantages:
Gets washed in the stat trinity if the aforementioned things are used
Far less range
…but his barrier can be depleted over time
Less versatile
If Belos depletes the souls in his stone he’s pretty much dead immediately
Belos
Advantages:
Stronger in Titan Form.
Gets stronger as the battle goes on due to Titan Form.
Faster in reaction speed in Titan Form
Significantly faster with FTL Owl House in base.
Teleportation, Illusion Creation, Telekinesis, and precognition allows for better battlefield control.
Father has no counter to dura negation through moss.
Prevents Soul Stealing in god, as Father cannot use alchemy and soul stealing at the same time, must have his barrier up to protect from the moss.
Petrification arguably oneshots…
Can destroy the barrier either overtime or instantly depending on deconstruction arguments……
Far more range.
Far more versatile.
Why he kinda….
Probably Bill Cipher.
Disadvantages:
Weaker at base.
Slower in base if FTL Owl House isn’t used.
…..although arguments exist for Belos not being able to get that off.
…………but potentially has no way around it initially.
Worse regeneration.
Soul Absorption and Deconstruction potentially oneshots if Father can get it off.
Possession would likely only kill Belos, being added to the count of souls that Father has.
Belos loses because of the vat of hot lava and metal.
Look at the time he came from, he definitely hates everyone different.
Final Vote
Team Father: [6] (CadenDaMonkay, Door-kun, Toxin, SonallyKingKataang, Kars, Sherm)
Team Belos: [8] (Albeanies, Coach Boomer, Fenic, Saul, TheRealGnomeChompski, thedarkloremaster, Tru, ZeeOne)
Winner
Just one more thing….
What a hoot, huh? This debate was really intense and Father almost won! I hope you liked reading this blog as much as I enjoyed writing it. Batch two now officially starts, the next time? Well, you should see for yourself.
Diavolo VS Overhaul
If you want to join, Saulgoodmanagain is my discord! Find me under Saul in your friendly death battle servers, and shoot me a DM. I can also be contacted through Reddit as Saulgoodmas.
