(TN credit to U/SilverFan101)
Before we go anywhere.
These two are very limited characters in terms of appearances. We'll be exploring their main sources, The Cuphead Game and Puss In Boots: The Last Wish. Anything around in terms of scaling and such will also be considered. This includes Cupheads other Canon media (Show, Comics, and Artbook) and the Puss In Boots Netflix series, which is confirmed canon by the writers.
Shrek is also a very well researched verse, I'd be lying if I said I had done tons of the research. So i’m going to pass out some credit to blogs that we used during the research. (I also just really like these blogs as well, they’re worth checking out)
King Knight VS Jack Horner: Prediction blog.
Puss In Boots VS Mao Mao: Prediction blog.
Shrek VS Manny: Prediction blog.
All three of these blogs are well made and worth checking out. With that being said, let’s meet these greedy combatants.
Background
Chef Saltbaker
Jack Horner
“It’s so cute how you’d think that would work on me! Don’t you know i’m dead inside?”
Little Jack Horner sat in a corner eating his Christmas pie. He stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum, exclaiming what a good boy am I! But Jack is far from the good boy from that mere fairy tale. In this world, one where those stories are flipped on their head, Jack is nothing more than a greedy man who wants all the magic in the land.
Jack had, as he’ll tell you, a tragic upbringing. He had everything that he could have wanted. Riches, an empire to eventually take over, but not fame. Jack tried to be the mascot for his parents' baking company. Unfortunately for Jack, he wasn’t successful. Who cares for a boy singing about pies when there’s a literal talking puppet next store. (Dick move, Geppetto. You literally tried to sell your son later for a couple coins). Jack would grow up, forming a hatred for magical creatures, starting his own criminal empire business. On the outside? He was a pie owner. On the inside? He was pure evil.
So what do you do with this hatred? Collect every single magical object you could find, and attempt to rid the world of fairy tale creatures. Jack would have a vast collection of magical nicknacks that he could use for all his evil deeds. There was, however, one magical artefact he wanted most. Long ago, before all of these fairytale creatures, a Wishing Star crashed down onto Earth. Anyone who would ever make it to the centre of this star would be granted their one true wish. Unfortunately, it was surrounded with a horrific dark forest that would kill anyone who would enter. What did Jack want? It’s so simple! To have all of the magic in the world.
Unfortunately for him, the piece of the map was stolen by Puss In Boots, a famous outlaw who was currently trying to outrun Death itself. Jack, alongside The Bakers Dozen, would follow Puss into the forest. The map changed it from a horrific landscape into a deceptively easy one.
Jack came to blows with ‘Team friendship,’ the name of Puss and his crew, alongside other crime family Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Jack would make his way through the forest, losing The Bakers Dozen along the way. Battle started between these three factions, Jack falling into his Nanny Bag. This wouldn’t put the leader down for long, as he popped out as a giant. Now with the Wishing Star in hand, he could make the one wish that he always wanted. Unfortunately, everyone had enough of Big Jack Horner by that point. Puss, Goldilocks, even some of his own equipment teamed up to destroy the Last Wish. The platform of the Wishing Star destroyed itself, causing Jack to fall in and die. Why did he die in such a horrific way, suffocation by the Wishing Star? Well, he doesn’t even seem to know.
Experience and Skill.
Chef Saltbaker
While Saltbaker may seem like your average world-renowned baker, he is FAR more than that, especially when it comes to doing battle. We don't exactly know how old he is or what his motivations are (DLC bosses am i right?) but he is a master in all things magic, especially when it comes to the matter of the Astral Plane.
Saltbaker has found numerous magical items to aid him in battle, manipulated Cuphead and Mugman into gathering more for him, and has knowledge in all things regarding the Astral Plane. He's also considered a similar threat to The Devil and has Battled Cuphead and Mugman (who themselves beat The Devil). This is important because The Devil is a master magician in the arcane arts, and had been around for thousands of years; even up to the beginning of time.
In terms of how he fights, Saltbaker primarily peppers (heh) the area with his vast arsenal of magical items, rapidly putting them into play to swarm the area and force Cuphead into a corner. While this does leave him open to attack, one will still have to get around his multiple surprises first.
Jack Horner
Jack Horner is the owner of Jack Horner Pie Co. He controls both the pies of the world, and
whatever magical artifacts that one man could want. He has a surprisingly strong reputation as
someone you do not want to mess with. During the film, Jack travels through the Wishing Star
forest, only having some trouble thanks to the plants. When he gets to the Wishing Star, he puts up
a good fight against a majority of the cast. He's able to hold his own against Goldilocks and the
three bears. Even though Puss describes them as amateurs, they can hold their own in combat.
It's when Jack is shown fighting Kitty Softpaws and the legendary Puss In Boots, being able to
decently keep up with them in combat.
Equipment.
Jack Horner
Pies
They aren't much on the side of versus but they are a huge part of Jack's identity. If they are good Jack may even pronounce them delicious.
Midas Hand
Magic Nanny Bag
A bottomless bag capable of holding all of Jack's magical trinkets needed to murder people.
Hook
Before departing on his quest for the Wishing Star, Jack grabbed a hook.
It's a hatchet. LIkely good at chopping trees and peoples heads off.
Jack has a trident. This Trident is good for being thrown and probably at close range.
Explosive Apples
Umbrella
Be careful or… oh. She's gone.
Magic Flying Carpet
It's a magic carpet that flies. Aladdin In shambles.
A tiny lite wand that can turn an average pumpkin into a carriage.
Cinderella’s glass slipper
While Jack said this was useless, we shouldn’t underestimate the power of being stabbed by a glass shoe.
Ethical Bug
Phoenix
To most, she is a beautiful symbol of life. To Jack, she's a powerful flamethrower of death.
Excalibur
The mythical sword of legend. Unfortunately Jack couldn't get the rock off so it acts more like a hammer.
Unicorn Crossbow
Orb
Sometimes a man has to ponder. This magical orb can help track down people and visions of the future.
Magic Staff
Just your average staff that fires magical energy blasts.
Eat Me Cookie
Misc Weapons
You never know when a random assortment of weapons will come in handy.
Chef Saltbaker
Gnome Berries
They appear in the form of a sentient box of strawberries that Saltbaker can squeeze to release
(that did not sound right) and launch dozens of fruit Missiles across the screen, raining red, sweet,
and juicy death on any foe.
Icy Sugar Cubes
Manifesting as a giant sugar cube…this guy gets promptly SHATTERED WITH A HAMMER, and has
his remains blown across the area in flying Sugar Cubes to further flood the screen.
Pineapple Mint
Third on the ingredient checklist is some Pineapple Mint, guarded by the Howling Aces.
Not used until a later strategy, Chef Saltbaker lightly scrunches up these (thankfully)
non-sentient leaves, and tosses multiple to float down around the area and harm his enemies.
Desert Limes
After the Mint is collected, let's move on to Dessert Limes, kept in the possession of Ester Winchester
out in the desert. These are…sentient…and they get promptly…sliced open; their remains mutilated
even more and slid away to boomerang around the area.
Distillery Dough
Taken from the Moonshine Mob in their Bootlegger Boogie is the Distillery Dough. Like the others,
it is alive just to suffer, through Saltbaker flattening his body cutting it up unto cookieand sending these animal objects to hop around the area and harm enemies
Mighty Mushroom
get high. Like, sky-high. Or more accurately, it increases his size to gigantic proportions; from his
basement all the way to the top of his bakery, likely 3 stories tall given the area he grows past.
Pepper Shakers
projectiles at Cuphead. These are unique in that after being destroyed, they Return to attack yet again,
for a pretty much endless amount of time until Saltbaker stops using them. Primarily because they can
be attacked and sent to smash into Saltbaker, which he strangely doesn't stop.
Powers and Abilities
Jack Horner
Jack isn’t taking anything here. Unlike the people around him in his verse, he has nothing except everything he could ever want.
Chef Saltbaker
Salt Manipulation
Telekinesis
By magical means currently unknown, Saltbaker can guide his ingredients around the area in flights of sparkling wonder, which is no select trait. All of them fly around in the same patterns, sparkle while doing so, and fly according to Saltbakers wishes, since his goal is to force you into a corner through weapon bombardment.
Pyrokinesis
Through his boss fight, Saltbaker summons and controls fireballs to hop around the area, which are directly affected by his will, as shown by them fading when his body gets destroyed briefly. He can summon two at once, and potentially more, but that's all we really see of it.
Weapon Creation
Regeneration/Toonforce
Such examples include Baroness Von Bon Bon throwing away her head and growing it back, Goopy Le Grande getting splattered into pretty much nothing than being replaced by a tombstone only to be fine later, as well as the examples of The Devil and Ester Winchester. The Devil has juggled his head on his shoulders and hopped out of his skin as a skeleton, while Ester was sucked into a vacuum and mutilated into dozens of sausages, only to be completely fine after the battle. Given his own Regeneration feats and threat in-verse similar to The Devil, Saltbaker should be comparable.
Soul Manipulation
Forms
Jack Horner
Giant
after eating the Eat Me Cookie and downing the Drink Me Potion, Jack grew to a large size. In This form he seems to be stronger and likely more durable however his size can be hard to utilise on small opponents.
Chef Saltbaker
Giant
Salt Dancers
When the chef’s giant body broke all that remained was his salt which he used to create these salt dancers. They jump and dance around trying to hit the Cupbros (or Chalice)while buzzsaws attack from below.
Heart
When Chef Saltbaker was on the brink of defeat all That was left was his heart. In this form he attempts to ram into his opponents. He also will create huge salt pillars in his image to limit his targets movement.
Weaknesses
Jack Horner
Chef Saltbaker
Despite Saltbakers baking brilliance, he has a few flaws in battle. Throughout his phases, he has an issue of leaving himself open to counterattack while launching his attacks, so if a foe is quick enough, he'd likely be put in danger by their attacks. Subsequently, he has only been in one as far as we know of, and relies on his ingredients/tools more than you'd think.
Feats
Overall
Jack Horner
Successful businessman in both crime and pie making.
Owns the magical items within his factory.
Fought against Team Friendship and Goldilocks.
Navigated his way through the wishing star forest.
Strength
Hits Goldilocks and the three bears with excalibur, causing the rock to break and the three to be sent flying. (seen above)
Fought and downscales from Puss in Boots, who can…
Wrangled the great terror (a giant goose)
Fight bulls as a child.
Match Death, who can shatter large crystals (0.017-0.036 tons)
“Described as way too powerful for the magic of San Lorenzo’s. This was used was to create the Arcanum, which was used to shield the town from Earth's destruction The town was founded to seal the Obelisk of Night, which made a massive storm upon activating (229 tons to 41.7 kilotons). (229 tons to 41.7 kilotons)
Downscales from Shrek, who threw Donkey into space. (Free my man) (91.7 Megatons)
Scales to the Great Mage Sino who created a dimension containing San Lorenzo and a cloudy sky. (4.7 Gigatons)
Durability
Kicked in the face by Kitty Softpaws.
Shoved by one of the three bears, who have shown to be able to bust down walls and doors.
Took his own exploding apple to the face, and more hits from Kitty Softpaws.
Took hits from Puss who can…
Take hits from the great terror (again, a giant goose) (9.1-64.7 MJ)
Scales to Shrek, who tanks Dragons fire which can burn a mountain. (19.4 Kilotons)
Again, Downscales from Toutatis, who took a hit from a foe who could create Earthquakes “Felt everywhere) (62.2 Gigatons)
Speed
Dodges an incoming attack from one of the three bears and actively keeps up with them throughout the fight.
Dodged an axe coming towards him alongside some murderous flowers.
Should scale to Puss who…
Blized Shrek, who scales to Harold blocking the electricity of the Fairy Godmother (Mach 1)
Reacted to The Blood Wolf’s Beam, which shot the moon. (80% - 1.83× c)
Chef Saltbaker
Successfully baited and tricked Cuphead, Mugman, and Mrs. Chalice into gathering all his ingredients
Captured/defeated Chalice's soul off-screen
Nearly created the Wondertart and defeated Cuphead and Mugman
Reformed from his past sins and became a jolly baker once more
Strength
Capable of smashing, slashing, and crushing each of the Wondertart ingredients
Controlled his entire body of salt to form large twisters and pillars.
With the Wondertart, he would take control over the Astral Plane in its entirety, and make it so “this world will be (his) salt domain” [See Before The Verdict]
Fought, harmed, and downscales from Cuphead and Mugman, who have…
Outmatched Glumstone The Giant. who is part of a man/mountain species that has calcified with stone and everything. TLDR, he's a mountain. (5.6755933 x 10^15 Joules)
Defeated The Devil with Mugman, and he should vastly upscale from each and every boss in all factors save Saltbaker (DLC)
And thus would also compare to other feats from bosses the brothers have defeated, like…
Hilda Berg can seemingly weaponize constellations, and this is directly stated in the artbook to draw inspiration from the Noiman Cascade, a Contra: Hard Corps boss that “turned stars into constellations” to fire at the player.
Djimmi The Great possibly made a mini realm in his boss fight
The Devil created a city wide storm and earthquake rather casually
Durability
Due to the brothers over time power boost from the first game, thus would make him by proxy superior to every boss in their original outing save for The Devil
Tanked his own salt shakers being sent right back at him through Cuphead and Mugman's attacks
When destroyed, Saltbakers giant shell destroyed his basement (4.21875 x 10^11 Joules)
Speed
Can spin fast enough to make Salt twisters for extended periods of time
All his attacks and ingredients are capable of keeping up with and killing Cuphead, and moving faster animation wise than the majority of his moves. Cuphead has…
Dodged tornados and bullets from Hilda Berg, evaded candy shots from Baroness Von Bon Bon's candy blunderbuss, and dodged giant bullets from Wally Warbles while in a plane
Can dodge lightning/electricity from a lobster and outrun lighting from the Phantom Express, which is referred to as lightning to match the background
Thrown a lasso to the Moon in about 0.24 seconds (5.3475 × FTL)
Defeated The Devil, who The Devil delivered presents all around the world for Santa Claus's on Christmas (0.1969305896 x FTL)
This feat is even more impressive than you'd think, given he did this in mere hours given the timeframe, on top of travelling to every house in the world, not just select cultures from other calculations
Before the verdict
Baking the Wondertart (Literally)
The Wondertart is what starts the quest of the DLC. Apart from it looking incredibly tasty, the tart is said to give control of the astral plane to whoever takes a bite of this. What’s the astral plane? Like everything in Cuphead, this is very vague. It seems to be another world where the dead souls go. Chalice is caught between the living world and the astral plane, making out they’re similar in size. This is also the energy that Cuphead uses for his supers. Other characters are able to access this astral plane, like Mangosteen (8-Ball in King Dice's bosses), and the main characters. If Saltbaker makes this Wondertart, he should have access to the plane itself giving at least planetary levels of power.
But can Saltbaker bake this?
Short answer, Maybe. Chef Saltbaker has access to the ingredients, only missing a soul. It isn’t shown how Saltbaker gets one of the cast souls for his Wondertart, but we know he can manipulate spirits to some degree. He’s either taking them out with his hands, or grabbing them after they die. Luckily for this Chef, The Bakers Dozen exists. All he has to do is kill one of the members, or have Jack take one of them, and make the tart. GG, right?
Well, no. Saltbaker would have to find the time to bake the Wondertart. Considering Jack and the bakers would constantly be attacking Saltbaker, finding the right angle to cook is going to be rough.
Verdicts
Saul
Hello everyone and welcome to my second blog! There is something new about this one though, we
have two people who have joined me on this journey. Tru and Round 1 fight! Both of them have been
incredibly useful when getting this blog up, and great for discussion. With that being said, it’s time to see
which baker comes out on top.
Stats
These two have surprisingly concrete stats. On their own they really do nothing special, with Jack
shattering the stone around Excalibur and Saltbaker growing to the size a few stories high.
This is where we get to the tricky part, where do you scale the overgrown salt baker and fairy
tale child? Well, Chef Saltbaker should scale above Cuphead and reliability gets to about Small city level. I say reliability, because a calc does exist of Cuphead pulling the moon (Gru be damned)
but this is a very high outlier. Jack should reliably scale above Puss, which puts him at
Island level at about 62.1 gigatons of TNT which is about island levelSussy Jack should have strength in the bag.
I should also say their durability scales as well just in case anybody is wondering.
For speed, again, they don’t do much on their own. These jolly ol’ fellows scale to, you guess,
Puss and Cuphead. With Cuphead, he should scale the Devil being Santa. But don’t forget,
this is more impressive than you'd think, given he did this in mere hours given the timeframe,
on top of travelling to every house in the world, not just select cultures from other calculations.
That puts the Saltbaker, who scales to Cuphead, who scales to the devil at 0.1969305896 x FTL.
Ok, cool. Now the Moon pull feat would change things to a 5.3475 X FTL, not awful at all. The only issue here is that this Moon feat is commonly contested. Is it an outlier? A really small moon? It’s just way too rough to consider. Jack on the other hand is much easier, Puss has a 1.83c calc which puts Horner and Saltbaker on similar ground, unless you buy the moon feat.
Arsenal and Abilities
Why do these guys have a much larger arsenal for only appearing in one thing? Anyway, let’s have a
look at what they have. Jack for some reason has some really useless things. Like, “Oh wow you
have a hook! That’ll come in useful!” Jack does have a variety of melee weapons though. From
swords, to tridents, to the sword in the stone, a close encounter can benefit Jack. He also has a
Magic Carpet and Umbrella, which could make manoeuvring beyond the battlefield a possibility.
The Phoenix and Magical staff are good ranged options, especially since that lil Jack Horner has
his crossbow. This Baby Unicorn Crossbow, if it manages to hit Saltbaker, could destroy his entire
casing. I’m not convinced that it would destroy the Salt, but it could destroy the Heart. Midas hand
could turn Saltbaker to gold, making his shell into a golden tomb. Fucked up? Totally. In character?
Surely. Jack could also accidentally touch his own golden hand, and turn himself to gold. He also
has the Bakers Dozen, the true victims of the battle.
Let’s see what Saltbaker can do. His tools, which could be running away from him in the battle,
can sometimes take some time to set up. Sure, he’s just throwing leaves throughout the battlefield
and sending Gnome Berries at you, but some of it requires him to slice and dice and roll and stamp.
Saltbaker also has a few abilities of his own, like being able to create fire and buzzsaws. The most
potent thing is his control over his body, demonstrating the ability to regenerate.
Now, can Saltbaker be baking the Wondertart? IMO, no. Considering he’d have Jack Horner
and the Baker's Dozen on him, he’d be in hell trying to cook. I’ve watched Hell's Kitchen, but at
least Gordon Ramsay isn’t trying to physically assault you the entire time. There’s also the question of,
how does one bake a Wondertart? Sure, Chef Saltbaker could grab a soul from the Baker's Dozen.
(There’s no significance that he can just grab someone's soul alive) Chef Saltbaker would be under
a lot of pressure to bake the Wondertart, and not lose his shell.
Any other factors
I’ve had really no good idea what to put here. We don’t know tons about what both can do.
They both own decently successful crime businesses, and Jack is implied to have something
of a criminal past, it’s nothing super noteworthy. Saltbaker should have an overall intelligence
advantage based on the fact he knows about the astral plane. Jack is very headstrong when
it comes to using his weapons, and as stated earlier, his greed for all things magical can also
get in the way of his combat and allow his bakers to die. That’s not to say Saltbaker is a tactical
genius, leaving your Salt Shakers out to launch back into you isn’t a smart play. I’d say Saltbaker
is smarter in battle IQ, but Jack seems more experienced.
Conclusion
As much as I wanted my favourite Saltshaker to win, he really doesn’t. The strength difference, the oneshot potential of Horner, the bigger army leading to a chaotic battle, the glass shoe, everything comes together to make Saltbaker tonights biggest loser. The Moon feats might change things, but I find them to be pretty invalid in terms of my scaling.
Jack Horner is the winner.
Tru
Tru rantsona jumpscare
Stats
Stats here are interesting. Boths physical feats are pretty much nothing compared to their scaling.
Without scaling Saltbaker's Heart Form and Salt can survive the destruction of his basement which
is higher than anything Jack has done. But with scaling the tables turn as Jack just has… way stronger
feats. Now immediately there is some cosmic Cuphead to talk about so let's just get into that. Rip the
bandaid off now you know?
There are 3 big feats here. Djimmi’s Star Realm, Hilda’s contra constellations and Cuphead pulling
the moon. Starting with Djimmi we see the comic panel has some of Djimmis minions appearing
from his sarcophagus. The sarcophagus seems to be a pocket dimension so it's hard to call it uni
but what is interesting about it is the “stars”. Now let's just assume these are stars for the sake of
argument, even If these were stars we don't actually see Djimmi do anything with them.
There are minions leaving the sarcophagus near a cluster of stars but to me, it would be
assuming a lot to say Djimmi is using his physical power to turn the stars into minions and
not that the minions were just emerging from the pocket dimension. We also can't even
verify the size of the stars, that can be another hypothetical assumption assuming they are stars,
which is somewhat likely in all fairness.
Next is Hilda’s constellations which i'm not even gonna hold you, I think these are cool little effects to
indicate what form of hers is coming next. Seeing as she never uses the constellations as an attack and
only to indicate which form she's going into, I think it's safe to assume she can't just form a real
constellation to nuke you with. Even with the Contra comparison that's likely just to show where they
got the idea for using constellations as a way of changing forms and not that Hilda can attack with the
power of multiple stars.
Finally lies our favourite cup and his moon hijinx from the Cuphead Show. Now you could call this
an outlier which is fair and I can see but I think the real smoking gun is the size. Saul posted the calc
in his verdict but basically, that moon is really small. Now you could argue it's an artstyle thing but look
at Cuphead and the rope, now look at the moon. To me that just looks like a really small moon
compared especially when put up to Cuphead and the rope used to pull the moon. With Cuphead
struggling to pull the moon and failing as well making this even more shaky to me.
So where do I have Saltbaker? Small City by upscaling Glumstone The Giant
who is 5.6755933 x 10^15 Joules just by being big. And for speed? I'll be kind and use the Moon Pull?
“But I thought you didn't buy it?” I don't buy it for AP but I think we can use the speed calc for it. If not…
then Saltbaker is in trouble. This would put Saltbaker at least like 5c, probably higher seeing as
Cuphead got stronger throughout the game and this takes place before the game.
Jack is way more straightforward. Scaling to Puss who scales to characters in the verse. Jack takes
plenty of punishment during the climax of the movie so this is a fair scale. Puss scales to Toutatis.
Toutatis was capable of making Earthquakes felt “Everywhere” which got 62.2 Gigatons of TNT.
Now I'm comparing Joules to Gigaton but to put that into perspective, The Joules amount for
Small City level is in the Megatons. 62.2 Gigaton is in the Island Level which is 3 tiers above
Small City. Yikes.
Now Jack does take an L with the speed I'm using for Saltbaker. Being kind and giving
Puss full scaling to the speed of the Blood Wolf’s beam means he's 1.83c.
If you don't he's 0.80c due to him reacting to the beam. This is slower than Saltbaker,
slow enough for Saltbaker to begin blitzing but seeing how Saltbaker doesn't move much
during his fight outside of the Salt Dancer's and Saltbaker is weaker I can't say Saltbaker wins off
speed alone.
Overall Jack just has the better stats here overall but Saltbaker does have a nice speed advantage.
Arsenal and Abilities
Both Jack and Saltbaker have a surprisingly large arsenal for how little screen time they get.
Despite this, I feel as if this category isn't exactly a huge deal. A lot of Jack's arsenal is kind of
a throw away and nothing more than an average item that wouldn't give Jack an inherent edge.
Think of the hook, glass slipper and the assortment of medieval weaponry. The Umbrella and
Magic Carpet would also likely fall into this category but they may help Jack manoeuvre across
the battlefield. Both can use fire so the Phoenix isn't very helpful and let's be real, The Ethical
Bug is just gonna leave or be useless. These same points should go for the basic attacks of
Saltbaker like Gnome Berries, Distillery Dough etc. But this is amplified even further seeing as
he has lower strength in my opinion. Obviously these items would hurt each other from both but they
don't shift the tide of battle.
However, there are a few tools in boths arsenal that could be helpful. Both can match each other
in size with the Mushroom and Cookie, The Midas Hand from Jack could seal Saltbaker in his own
salt shaker shell seeing as this Heart Form is what's keeping him alive. This is assuming the touch
doesn't backfire which is a possibility. Jack's Unicorn Horn Crossbow could explode the heart into
confetti or the shell with its likely durability negating properties but he would need to hit the heart
(so aka just fix the sight idiot). This would also be hard with the Saltbaker's reaction speed.
But the real question, could Saltbaker make the Wondertart? For me, I don't think so. Immediately
we don't know how long it takes to make the tart. Second, we don't know how much time is needed
to put all the ingredients together and mix them properly. Third, He then would likely have to cook
the tart with his fire manipulation. All of this under assault from Jack and The Bakers Dozen
(Which tbf, the Baker Dozen acts like soul fodder for the wondertart) just sounds silly to assume
he could make the time required to make the tart.
However something else of note Saltbakers regeneration. Even after having his Saltshaker exterior
destroyed, Saltbaker Heart remained. And after the fight was over his Saltshaker shell returned.
To say the least Jack has his work cut out for him. As I said early Jack could just bypass this with
the Midas Touch which is an opening move of his but it could backfire and may not be reliable.
However from what can be deduced destroying Saltbakers heart could fully kill him and Cuphead,
Mugman and Chalice just choose to spare him and the other bosses.
Now with the speed advantage, mountains of salt and some bad aim this will be hard but seeing
as all Jack needs to do it hit Saltbaker twice (once for the shell and once on the heart.
The heart likely cannot float for an infinite amount of height so Horner could hit it after a while.
Saltbaker is very slow on his regeneration as he only regenerated after the fight. This is to say,
given enough time Jack is more likely to land the two blows he needs then for Saltbaker to whittle
him down. Especially with how the Moon Pull likely doesn't scale for travel speed making hitting
Saltbaker a tad bit easier. This is helped by the fact it is notably slower than Cuphead physically.
Any other factors
I pronounce this section…
Not very important. Both are very vague on what they can do other than Saltbaker is a
veteran baker and Jack has been in crime long enough to be recognized by Puss.
Both are pretty intelligent and Saltbaker is great at hiding his plan but when it comes
to battle Both aren't perfect. Jack sacrifices all his men and is cocky but Saltbaker makes
plenty of mistakes such as leaving out Salt Shakers to hurt him and he played his hand pretty early.
Revealing that he was gonna make the Wondertart using the soul of either Chalice or the Cupbros
before he actually baked the tart which let Cuphead stop him.
I guess I'll touch on the Baker's Dozen here. They can distract Saltbaker but they likely get
demolished by him and act as free souls to bake into the Wondertart.
Because of all this I'd say this category goes to Saltbaker but not by a significant margin.
Conclusion
I am very surprised at how close this fight was. My verdict may seem very Horner leaning as I do believe Big Jack beats the salty snack but that speed advantage + regen was one hell of a combo for Saltbaker amplified by Jack having no AoE. Saltbaker has a pretty big wincon in the form of the Wondertart but it would be hard to say he wins off of that due to how difficult and risky it would be. Saltbaker could attempt to whittle down Jack but Jack's better stats would make that very hard. But in my opinion it is more likely Jack's strength and more potent arsenal take the cake or… pie more times than not. Saltbaker tried to serve up a meal with a little soul, but Jack made a dish to DIE for. The winner is Big Jack Horner.
Round 1 Fight
Stats
Hey guys. Super hyped to be on this one because I love the match (and because I heavily prefer this
to King Knight vs Jack) but let's get into it.
Starting with stats, it's pretty debatable who gets what edge. Both rely pretty much solely
on scaling, so we're basically measuring the best feats of Cuphead and Puss In Boots to
find who excels and who falls behind. Starting with Puss, he has a litany of amazing feats
across the movies and Netflix show, from scaling to Shrek throwing Donkey out of orbit,
to Earthquakes felt all over the planet, or various gigaton to teraton ends for scaling to the
Great Mage Sino. For speed, he has Dodged numerous laser examples, beams that shot to
the Moon, and read a Codex so fast it ignited at 30% the Speed Of Light, along with higher
ends like the bloodwolf feat getting just over FTL
Moving on to Cuphead, he has beaten pretty much everybody in verse, and has gotten far
stronger since his beginnings. An example would be the Domino miniboss in King Dice's repertoire,
who at that point could Cuphead can defeat far quicker than most other boss structures,
one-shotting Djimmi, a powerful boss from the previous Isle. Moving to stats, the most notable
examples would be defeating Glumstone, a literal giant who is for all intents and purposes a mountain.
He has calcified with rock over time, and shattered it just by flexing. Fighting and beating a mountain
like that gets low city examples, and for speed, he's dodged numerous lasers, beat The Devil
who did a significantly better version of Santa's sleigh job at 0.20 x FTL at bare minimum,
and threw a lasso to the Moon at 5.3475 x FTL.
Looking at these from base levels, Jack seems to have the edge. His scaling getting multiple
Gigatons is a decent bit higher than Glumstone scaling, but it's unlikely that is all there is to it.
For one thing, Saktbaker is similar to The Devil in execution of the Final all-powerful boss, along
with the scaring type intro only being reserved for them (although Saltbaker is pretty scary lol).
Thus, comparing them as the peaks of their verse besides Cuphead/Mugman isn't too far-fetched.
In this way, both would exceed Glumstone by no small amount given how much stronger Cuphead
has gotten over his journeys. The potion he took to gain his powers in the first place made him ascend
to The Devils heights in pretty much a day, and get to the point where he could defeat him with
Mugman's help. For perspective on how high a jump we are talking about, the Domino miniboss
I spoke of earlier one-shot Djimmi, and Cuphead defeated the couple in less than a minute,
on top of all their comparable members of Dice’s gang, and Dice himself.
This kind of power jump means Cuphead, and thus Saltbaker, would largely upscale from the city
and beyond levels of power Glumstone can dish out, which characters in the DLC lead credence
to when comparing the Devil to the bosses present. Still, after that, Jack should have the edge
in strength…at least until we get to the Cosmic feats.
Multiple feats exist in Cuphead that exceed Jack's ends, like Cuphead has pulling the Moon/Sun a bit,
moving both, albeit failing to entirely move them. However, any moving of a Celestial object this
size still gets higher than anything Jack has access to. While you may be quick to call this an outlier,
it's really not when you consider other feats in the Cuphead universe Saltbaker would compare to.
Hilda Bergs star like constructs and attacks are outright compared to stars turning to
constellations in the artbook, Djimmi The Great apparently turns stars in his sarcophagus
into his minions he Shoots out, and then there's Saltbaker himself with the aid of the Wondertart.
He would take control over the entire Astral Plane, and vice versa threaten the world at large,
making it his Salt Domain. This isn't far-fetched either, given the Astral Plane has been compared to
“the living world” in the Artbook, and is likely an area where the dead go. Hence, a planet sized
realm is quite logical all things considered. While it's Debatable if he can make this,
his later powers will explain why it should be possible and realistic that he can and would do so.
This level of power, as well as the other examples, FAR exceed the kinds of power Jack can handle,
and even if you don't buy any of them, there's still the matter of speed.
When comparing numbers, Saltbaker is at absolute minimum over 5 times faster when comparing
Puss and Cuphead's best speed feats. This compares the best feat Puss has to something
Cuphead did before he even got his special powers, let alone being boosted by those to the degree
I spoke of earlier. So even if you have Jack stronger, Saltbaker would be way faster, to the degree of
blitzing him given 5-10x speed gaps are typically regarded as blitzing nowadays.
Arsenal and Abilities
In terms of abilities and arsenal, this is another straightforward edge for Saltbaker. While Jack
may have more weapons and minions to fight for him, quantity is no substitute for quality,
and the same is true here. The majority of his weapons simply can't deal with Saltbaker
due to multiple factors, including speed, where Jack is sorely lacking in any Area Of Effect
moves to counter the speed gap, and the primary issue for him would be the reformed
Chefs regeneration. Him being able to come back from pretty much all damage except his
heart, including being shattered and having his insides scattered everywhere, means
Jack's only methods of victory would be the Midas Touch or the Unicorn Horns, since nothing
he has aside from those can disintegrate Saltbaker and bypass his healing. The Midas Touch
is possible, but he has to land it first, on top of making sure he doesn't touch it, or Saltbaker
doesn't just remove it entirely. Even then, other characters in Cuphead like the titular Brothers
can break out of petrification from Cala Maria, so it's unlikely the touch will do much all things
considered
The Unicorn Horn is a similar case in that he has to actually hit Saltbaker with it first, which is
pretty much impossible not just because he has trash aim, but there's also the speed gap, and
the fact that if he were to hit Saltbaker, all it would do is destroy his glass-like outer shell. This
would have Saltbaker be his salty insides and heart, which are still capable of fighting by the
way, and then Jack would have to hit his heart, which can easily just hide in the Onslaught
of salt everywhere. That Salt would also not be in danger of getting transmuted, given it is
salt. Not a solid surface to turn, especially considering the horns don't affect clothes or
objects like that, only the actual body. Even then, let's say it would kill him. Saltbakers own
regen has brought him back from similar, as has Ester Winchester, who was chopped into
pieces/heavily mutilated, but fine later. The Unicorn Horns bursting foes into confetti still
leaves that behind, and thus it can't take out Saltbaker.
Moving on to other powers, Saltbaker can counter pretty much everything else in Jack's magic bag.
His own Regeneration and speed make fatal blows all but impossible, he can match Jack's giant form with his own, control fire to resist the Phoenix's flames, and rain down all his other tools on the minions/Jack himself. What's more is his ability to control souls, shown in his Astral Cookies,
making the Wondertart at all which requires he add a soul, and taking Chalice's own for this
very purpose. Given he has all the ingredients for the Wondertart at all times, there's nothing
stopping him from making it on the spot and further cementing his power far higher than Jack’s,
if not using his for the Tart in the first place. Some may argue he can't simply yank someone's
spirit out of their body, but if you do believe that, there's still the matter of his controlling and
capturing a lone spirit like Chalice. Since the Bakers Jack has are all fodder Saltbaker can
dispense of, all he needs is one soul from them to make the Wondertart and instantly end the
battle. It may seem detrimental to do this mid-battle and out of character, but Saltbaker is fully
capable of doing this in a fight. He does after all prepare all the ingredients to attack Cuphead/Mugman
while battling them, and didn't try to make the Tart solely because he wanted to kill them first and
“use their heads as serving dishes”. In a battle here where his only objective is to win and he is
fully capable of improving his chances with his sole desire/prize, he will most assuredly do so.
No matter what you say for Jack, Saltbaker will always have counters and better abilities across the board.
Skill/Experience
Going to experience and the like, both are fairly even in different ways. Jack has more combat
and adventure experience as far as we know, while Saltbaker is smarter and an expert manipulator,
on top of overwhelming his opponents in battle. This may seem like Jack had the edge, but rememberr that Saltbaker's main attack style is in flooding the area with tricks and traps until they are
overwhelmed and likely to make a mistake. Jack would certainly fall victim to this given how prone
he is to error in his own outing, and given he's mostly fought opponents not nearly as
versatile as them who have a one-track mind. The moment he is up against more crafty
opponents like Kitty Softpaws who can outwit him, he is soundly defeated,
which is how ultimate power was stolen from his literal grasp.
Conclusion
To sum up, Saltbaker holds all the relevant and important cards here. He is either in the same
ballpark of power thanks to massively upscaling a literal mountain, highly exceeding that power
through Celestial feats, and always far faster through comparing feats. His powers are more
useful and make killing him given that speed gap pretty much impossible, on top of his own
arsenal and counters to Jack's own. His style of fighting perfectly counters Jack's, he is smarter
and likely to manipulate him right into his glass hands. And so, it seems that..
“Big Jack Horner was backed into a corner, screaming “No no no no no” so high.
Chef Saltbaker pulled him up by his thumb, said “you are done” and ensured he would die…
by baking his soul into a Wondertart and taking control over all the Astral Plane laughing. Sheesh”
The winner…is Chef Saltbaker.
Overall
Jack Horner
Advantages
Physically Stronger than anything that Saltbaker could put out.
Could likely prevent the Wondertart from being baked….
Better one-shot potential in unicorn horn and Midas touch…
Numbers advantage with The Bakers Dozen
More experienced in combat and adventuring.
Fought Doctor Eggman and Aku in a rap battle.
Will never change, not even with the help of Steven Universe
Disadvantages.
Slower with Moon Pull
Much weaker with Cosmic Cuphead
Lacks his own powers and abilities.
..But Saltbakers regeneration makes many other options useless.
….But if baked, loses most advantages.
Isn’t as generally smart as this Chef.
Doesn’t have a banger theme.
Chef Saltbaker
Advantages
Faster with Moon Pull
Stronger with Cosmic Cuphead.
Generally smarter and more deceptive than Horner.
If the Wondertart is baked, much more of an instant win….
Regeneration would make putting him down harder….
Baking The Wondertart (The song, not the wincon) And it’s drum cover.
Only got community service for literal murder.
Disadvantages.
Slower without the Moon Pull.
Weaker without Cosmic Cuphead.
Lacks battle experience and adventuring.
Outnumbered
…Given the similar speed, the mysterious nature around The Wondertart, and Jack’s one shot potential it likely can’t be baked.
…Mida’s touch and Unicorn Horns could oneshot him.
Can be beat in 53 seconds.
Isn’t in the show.
Verdict.
This battle was incredibly close. I hope the Chef won’t be Salty about this one, as Jack Horner is taking that win home.
Team Chef Saltbaker- 1 (Round 1 Fight)
Team Jack Horner - 2 (Saulgoodmas, Tru)
Final thoughts.
I want to give a big thank you to Tru and Round 1 fight for making this blog possible. They turned
a big project into something that took us only three days.
The next time is Medic VS Richtofen! If you want to join, DM me on discord at Saulgoodmanagain.If not, that's ok, thank you for reading this blog. :)
Holy peak blog. Great job!
ReplyDeleteYou did really good on this, I'm impressed.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I do have a few things to ask you,
Which may or may not be a few issues that could mess up the scaling for Jack...
Apparently, from what I've seen on the Characters Stats and Profiles wiki page for Puss by MemeLordGamer Trap, it said this
"Planet level (Bloodwolf is multitudinously stated, implied, and overarched to be able to eviscerate the entire Planet. Puss has proven comparable to Artephius, who is one-half of Sino's power. The Great Mage Sino is the most powerful sorcerer and one of the most fierce beings in the universe. As he holds the most powerful of all magical objects, the Arcanum. Since this statement is applied in a general sense. The Arcanum would scale to and above all magical artifacts and or objects. Putting it above the likes of the Wishing Star and Magic Beans. If Jack had all the magic of the world, he would have destroyed the earth. Magic Beans are referred to being ancient power capable of destroying the world), possibly Universe Level+ (Arcanum could also be above Magical Contracts, which can warp and create alternate space-time continuums and realities. The Wishing Star is stated to be able to grant any wish, which would be possible endless power)",
And this, "Massively FTL+ (7,132.03. The Moon was actually the Sun), Inaccessible (The Bloodwolf states to have existed before time itself. Meaning he existed before space as well as time and space began as prerequisites of the big bang. To predate that, means to exist outside the conventional time framework which would give The Bloodwolf inaccessible speed as he was wary he existed before such innovations)".
I just want to know what are Your thoughts on this, bc to me, it's all a bit.. ehhh.. iffy.
And probably more so of High-Ends to me.
Also, I'm not trying to get you to believe this, bc it's again, kinda iffy(at least in my personal opinion), and well, I don't.
And ik that there is the whole "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet thing" too.
Also I'm not trying to say who wins,
I just thought I'd point these things out,
Just to see what You personally think of it.
And bc I was curious about the whole thing.
DeleteBut other than those potential Issues and High Ends, I do again approve of your page and I can't wait to see more of what you have in store for the future.
ReplyDelete